The "A Biscuit" Refrain In "Down Down Baby" & Certain Other Playground Rhymes

Edited by Azizi Powell

Here's an excerpt of a cocojams2 blog post http://cocojams2.blogspot.com/2014/11/a-biscuit-phrase-in-playground-rhymes.html on the use of the words "a biscuit" as a refrain in some playground rhymes:

"A number of playground rhymes include the refrain "a biscuit" or a folk processed form of those words. As a result of my curiousity about the source of that "a biscuit" phrase in those playground rhymes, I've come up with the theory that the "a biscuit" refrain is a folk processed form of the words "a trisket". The words "a trisket" words were popularized by the Jazz song "A Trisket A Tasket". That said, from the rhyme examples that I've found, it appears that the "a biscuit" refrain wasn't included in "Down Down Baby" and other rhymes until the 1970s. And rhyme examples that mention "Ronald McDonald" couldn't have been created before 1963 when that McDonald's mascot was first created. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_McDonald.

I'd love to know if anyone remembers chanting a rhyme with "a biscuit" used as a refrain prior to the 1970s.

My guess is that when they are used as a refrain, the words "a biscuit" may not have originally had anything to do with the food named "biscuit". That said, in some "a biscuit" refrain rhymes those words appear to refer an actual "biscuit"- for instance in some examples of those rhymes the lines go: "I have a boyfriend/a biscuit/He is as sweet as/a biscuit".
-end of quote-
Notice that the example given below omits the word "as":

"I've got a boyfriend, a biscuit/ He's so-oo sweet, a biscuit".
-snip-
That cocojams2 post contains fifteeen examples of "a biscuit" refrain rhymes. Here are two examples that I didn't include in that post:

"I can only remember the down down baby one, our version went like this

Ronald McDonald, ooh ahh a biscuit
Ronald McDonlad, ooh ahh a biscuit
A-shishi-wa-wa, a biscuit
I've got a boyfriend, a biscuit
He's so-oo sweet, a biscuit

Sweeter than an ice-cream, cherry on top
Sweeter than an ice-cream, cherry on top

Down down baby, down down the rollercoaster
Sweet sweet baby, I'll never let you go

Shimmy shimmy cocopop, shimmy shimmy wow!
Shimmy shimmy cocopop, shimmy shimmy pow!

I can't believe that I remember all that!!"
-mal'occhio http://www.essentialkids.com.au/forums/index.php?/topic/845958-hand-clapping-games/ "Hand clapping games", Posted 18 November 2010

**
Domino, Domino, Domino biscuit
Ooh chi chi wa wa a biscuit
Kisha’s gotta lover a biscuit
He’s so sweet a biscuit
Like a cherry tree a biscut
Ice cream soda ginger ale pop
Hop on the initial of your sweetheart

Or…

Kisha’s got a lover a biscuit
He’s so sour a biscuit
Needs to take a shower a biscuit
- Kisha, http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=31403&page=6 "Old School Chants, 04-02-2003
-snip-
Posters to this blog thread were members of historically Black Greek letter sororities. I think that this example was performed as a hand clap rhyme.

Although no dates are given for most of their comments, from some other things that were mentioned, such as just completing university, my guess is that these "old school chants" are from the early 1980s to the mid 1980s. For instance, although one blogger gave a sub-heading for her post of "the 70s", three bloggers shared examples of a Coca Cola ad jingle ("Have A Coke And A Smile" that aired in 1981. Also, one blogger mentioned her age in 2003 as 23 years old, another blogger indicated that she remembered the rhyme she shared "from the 1985-ish Houston [Texas], and another rhyme included the slang word "fly" which gained popularity because of the 1995 Boogie Boy's record "Fly Girl".

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I've not been able to find any videos of any "a biscuit" (refrain) rhymes. However, for your enjoyment, here's a now classic Sesame Street clip of a group of African American girls performing a version of "Down Down Baby" (Shimmy Shimmy Co Co Pa" (ko ko bop, coco puffs?)

Sesame Street: Handclapping Chants



Sesame Street, Uploaded on Mar 27, 2009
-snip-
A commenter on this video's discussion thread wrote that this clip was filmed in 1986.

By the way, what's the earliest documented date for any "Down Down Baby" ("Shimmy Shimmy Co Co Pa") playground rhyme? "Shimmy Shimmy Ko-Ko-Bop" by Little Anthony and the Imperials was recorded in 1960. But that rhyme doesn't have anything to do with being "down by the roller coaster" or having a boyfriend (or a girlfriend) who was sweet "like a cherry treat" or "as a biscuit"). Were there "Shimmy Shimmy Coco Pa" (or similarly spelled) rhymes before 1960?

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Also, for your viewing pleasure, here's a 1942 video of Ella Fitzgerald singing "A Tisket A Tasket" in Abbott & Costello's movie Ride 'Em Cowboy (1942):

Ella Fitzgerald - A Tisket A Tasket (video)



Andrew Bloggs, Published on Oct 23, 2014

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RELATED LINK
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-tisket-tasket-information-lyrics-and.html. "A Tisket A Tasket" (information, lyrics, and video). That post includes quotes from online sources that indicate that the words "tisket" and "tasket" were made up to rhyme with the word "basket" and those words weren't given any meaning.

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EDITOR'S COMMENT
Some of the exanples in that cocojams2 blog post were featured on my cocojams.com cultural website that was online since December 2001. That website vanished late October 2014 [!?!) and I am partially recreating its playground rhymes pages from back-up files and from recent internet "rhyme harvesting". That's the story behind this blog name cocojams2.

Thanks for visiting pancocojams.

Visitor comments are welcome.

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Children's Rhyme "Hey...How About A Date Meet Me At The Corner About Half Past Eight

Edited by Azizi Powell

This is Part I of a two part series on the children's recreational rhyme "Hey ....How About A Date". That "title" is the first line of that rhyme. A celebrity's name is usually inserted after the word "Hey" (or "Hi"). The second line for that rhyme is "meet me at the corner at half past eight".

Part I features seven examples of that rhyme.

Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2014/07/childrens-rhyme-heyhow-about-date.html for Part II of this series. In that post I suggest that the 1847 Irving Berlin song "Kate (Have I Come Too Early, Too Late)" is the song source for that children's rhyme.

The content of this post is provided for folkloric and recreational, and cultural purposes.

Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.

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EDITORIAL COMMENT
In 1996 I conducted an informal written survey of playground rhymes among my fellow staff members of a Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania non-profit organization. That survey listed some playground rhymes by title (usually their first line), and asked respondents to provide some demographical information (decade they learned those rhymes, city location, gender, and race/ethnicity. That survey also had space for respondents to write down one or more examples of rhymes that they remembered, if they chose to do so.

One of those respondents, Barbara Ray, not only filled out that survey, but took time during our work break to demonstrate for me two "extra" rhymes - neither of which I had heard of before that time. One of those rhymes was what she called "Hey Baby" (How About A Date). I previously published this example on http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123101#2709354 [August 26, 2009] and http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2012/05/ladies-and-gentlemen-children-too.html.

However, I didn't find any similar example of that rhyme until I happened upon two rhymes on a Mudcat discussion thread. The two rhymes that opened up the flood gates (as it were) for other versions of "Hey Baby" (How About A Date) and even helped me to identify a possible source for that rhyme family were found on the Mudcat discussion thread about the children's rhyme "I'm A Nut" http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=25514&messages=26 "Origin: I'm a Nut" . Those two examples are found below.

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FEATURED EXAMPLES
The first two examples are presented in relative chronological order compared with the other examples. The other examples are presented in the order that I found them online. The numbers are assigned for referencing purposes.

Example #1:
Hey baby, how about a date?
I'll meet you round the corner
'Bout half-past eight.
Hands up!
Tachie Tachie Tachie
Hands down!
Tachie Tachie Tachie!
Sans BOOTS!
Tachie Tachie Tachie
Hands down!
Tachie Tachie Tachie!
Sans BOOTS!
- Barbara Ray (African American female), memory of her childhood in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in the 1950s; collected in November 1996 by Azizi Powell & in August 2009 (second interview) by Azizi Powell
-snip-
In 1996 Barbara shared this rhyme and the rhyme "Ladies And Gentlemen". Both were movement rhymes and not jump rope rhymes. By "movement rhymes" I mean that these rhymes were chanted while doing dance type motions. The motions were indicated by the words of the rhymes and also included side to side or front to back steps, slides, or small jumps. Barbara demonstrated that on the words "Sans BOOTS", the girls chanting did a pronounced shake of their hips to the side.

I've shared my thoughts about what Sans BOOTs mean in the comment section below.

I've put this example first because it might predate the 1957 example from this rhyme family that was collected by the Opies and included in their now classic book of children's rhymes.

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Example #2:
Hi, Roy Rogers how about a date
Meet me at the corner at half past eight
I can do the rumba
I can do the splits
I can do the turn arounds
I can do the kicks.
-girl 11 years, Swansea, 1957 for skipping.
from The Lore and Language of Schoolchildren, first published in 1959 [UK] editors: Iona Archibald Opie, Peter Opie, p. 116
-snip-
“skipping” here probably means what people in the USA call “jumping rope”. The rumba and the splits are self explanatory. "Turns arounds" are probably just what the word indicates. Doing high kicks were probably somewhat risque in the 1950s, since girls almost always wore dresses or blouses and skirts.

Given the use of an American celebrity's name ["the singing cowboy" Roy Rogers] I think that it's probable that this rhyme-or at least this example of that rhyme- originated in the United States and somehow found its way to Great Britain. However, I wonder if Roy Rogers' television show was shown in Britain before the date mentioned in this quote "Kids who grew up in Britain in the 1970s will remember Roy Rogers movies as a regular staple of after-school TV, and Roy Rogers annuals as familiar Christmas presents." http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2011/oct/14/roy-rogers-london-film-festival. If not, I suppose it would have been relatively easy for people from one English speaking nation to share rhymes any number of ways with people from another English speaking nation...
-snip-
Update: Read the comments below by slam2011 about the risqué nature of that entire jump rope performance and also her comment that the Roy Rogers television show was aired in the 1950s in Britain.

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Example #3:
Romeo and Juliet,
On the balcony they met.
"Gotta get dressed, I've got a date.
Shakesperare's coming at half past eight."

My daughter learned this verse in school in the late 80s...
-Cool Beans, http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=25514&messages=26 "Origin: I'm a Nut", Date: 27 Jul 10 - 02:29 PM

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Example #4:
This summer at Crossroads Outdoor Ministries I learnt this version

Called myself up on the phone
Just to hear my golden tone
Asked myself out on a date
Better be ready by half past eight...
Tinker, http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=25514&messages=26 "Origin: I'm a Nut", Date: 19 Sep 00 - 12:18 PM
-snip-
This is given as the second first to the rhyme "I'm A Nut". There are three additional verses to that example of that rhyme.

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Example #5:
Hi, Roy Rogers how about a date
Meet me at the corner at half past eight
Meet me on the corner at half past eight,
I can do the shing-a-ling,
I can do the twist
I can do The hootchie-cootchie
And it goes like this
- Source: Google Books: Weep Not, My Wanton: Stories & Poems
By Maggie Dubris ; David R. Godine Publisher, 2002
-snip-
The "shing a ling" (which was also known as the "Boogaloo") and the "twist" are American R&B dances from the 1960s. The "hootchie-cootchie" dance first originated in the 1876, but the term "hootchie cootchie" ,if not the dance itself, is a part of Americana.

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Example #6:
Hi Marshall Dillon (* Television character, circa 1950 *)
How about a date?
Meet me in the corner
At half past eight.

Bring along your horse.
Bring along your mule.
Don't bring your teacher
Cause I hate school.

Source: Hastings (1990)
http://mudcat.org/jumprope/jumprope_display_all.cfm
-snip-
Notice the 1950 date for this example.

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Example #7
Hi-O Silver, I've got a date.
Meet me at the corner At half-past eight.
I can do the rumba, I can do the splits,
I can wear skirts Above ....[excerpt ends there]
-snip-
The last line that is given in this excerpt appears to be the same as a line in the rhyme that I call "We Wear Our Hair In Curls". As such, the words after "above" are probably "my knees” and the next line probably is something like "I can ?? “whenever I please”
- Google Books, Legendary Figures in American Lore, Tristram Potter Coffin, Hennig Cohen.
Anchor Press, 1978 [excerpt] p .484, jump rope rhyme.
-snip-
"Hi-O Silver" is the iconic saying of the fictitious American cowboy "The Lone Ranger" - "Silver" being the name of The Lone Ranger's horse. That Texas Ranger would say "Hi-O Silver" when he was ready to gallop away on his horse.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Ranger the ... popular [Lone Ranger] television show ... ran from 1949 to 1957." end of quote
That 1950s is the same decade of the two earliest examples of this rhyme family that I have found [given as example #1 & example #2 above]

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CONCLUSION
Given those examples, my tentative conclusion (unless earlier examples are identified) is that "Hey ....How About A Date" rhymes originated in the 1950s in the United States as a girls recreation rhyme. Like most girls playground rhymes of the 1940s and 1950s, "Hey ....How About A Date" usually appears to have been performed as a jump rope (skipping) rhyme. After the 1960s, the usual performance activity for girls playground rhymes changed to partner hand claps (hand games). However, I've not (yet) found any examples of "Hey... How About A Date" that indicate that that rhyme was chanted as a hand clap game.

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Thanks for visiting pancocojams.

Visitors' comments are welcome.

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Examples Of "Shave And A HairCut" Children's Rhymes

Edited by Azizi Powell

This is Part II of a two part series on the tune that is commonly known in the United States as "Shave and a hair cut. Two Bits". Part II provides examples of "clean" children's rhymes that contain the line "shave and a hair cut". That post will be published ASAP.

Click for Part I of this post.
Part I provides information about the source of the tune which is commonly known in the United States by the words "Shave and a hair cut. Two bits." This post also provides an explanation of the meaning of "two bits" (or "six bits", another common ending in the United States or "two bobs", a common ending in the United Kingdom.) A few sound files and video examples the "Shave and a hair cut. Two bits" tune also are included in post.

Posting these examples on this blog that showcases Black music, dance, and other cultural indices is not meant to imply that these examples only came from Black people. No racial demographics were given for any of the contributors whose online examples are featured in this post. It's likely that all or most of these contributors are White. However, African American and other Black children have chanted "shave and a hair cut" rhymes. Furthermore, as found in articles featured in Part I of this series, the rhythmic pattern for the call and response Afro-Cuban calve rhythm that is known in the United States as "Shave and a hair cut. Two Bits" originated in Sub-Saharan Africa.

The content of this post is presented for folkloric, cultural, and recreational purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

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FEATURED EXAMPLES
(Examples from specific websites are posted together in the order that they are found on that website. These examples are numbered in consecutive order. The numbers that are assigned to these examples in this post differ from any numbers that might have been assigned on their source websites.)

Example #1:
We used to sing –

Shave and a haircut, two bits,
Who got married? Tom Mix,
Who did he marry? Ann O’Shea,
How is the baby? OK!
-Marcia on June 4, 2007; http://dan.hersam.com/2004/09/21/shave-and-a-haircut-two-bits/ "Amidst a tangled web: shave and a haircut, two bits" Hereafter given as Hersam: Shave And A Haircut
-snip-
Note: Either this Marcia or another contributor named Marcia posted this same version on August 28, 2011 and indicated that it was from "the [19]50s".

Here's some information about Tom Mix from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Mix
"Thomas Edwin "Tom" Mix (born Thomas Hezikiah Mix;[1] January 6, 1880 – October 12, 1940) was an American film actor and the star of many early Western movies. Between 1909 and 1935, Mix appeared in 291 films,[2] all but nine of which were silent movies. He was Hollywood's first Western megastar and is noted as having helped define the genre for all cowboy actors who followed."
-snip-
I'm not sure who Ann O' Shea is/was. Perhaps it was made up. But it's curious that that name shows up in a number of these examples. Perhaps it's because "O'Shea" rhymes with "Okay", but still...

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Example #2:
This is what I remember my dad singing:

Shave and a haircut, two bits
Who was the barber, Tom Mix
What did you sit in, a chair
What did he cut off, your hair

We grew up in British Columbia, Canada
-denise on January 30, 2008, Hersam: Shave And A Haircut

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Example #3:
shave and a haircut,bay rum
Don’t chew tobacco ,chew gum
Clothes on a washline dry up
You said a mouthful ,shut up !
-Stuart K. on April 22, 2009, Hersam: Shave And A Haircut

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Example #4: In the very early thirties we used to sing it as:

“Shave and a haircut, two bits
Who got married, Tom Mix
Who/Whom did he marry, Pearl White
How did he like her, all right”

Whoever sings it as “six bits” must have heard it 20 years later when inflation set in. Saw on another discussion “who did he marry, Alice White” but that doesn’t fit as smoothly as Pearl White and since Pearl White was a kind of contemporary of Tom Mix, it made more sense to connect him to Pearl White than the made up person Alice White, neither one of which he really married)."
-Ray W on April 11, 2011, Hersam: Shave And A Haircut
-snip-
The contributor is correct that Pearl White was "kind of contemporary of Tom Mix". Here's information from her Wikipedia page
-snip-
However, "Alice White" is the name of a film star who also was a contemporary of Tom Mix.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_White
"Alice White (August 24, 1904, Paterson, New Jersey – February 19, 1983, Los Angeles, California) was an American film actress."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_White
"Pearl Fay White (March 4, 1889 – August 4, 1938) was an American film actress. White began her career on the stage at the age of six. She later moved on to silent film appearing in a number of popular serials.

Dubbed the "Queen of the serials", White was noted for doing the majority of her own stunts in several film serials, most notably in The Perils of Pauline."

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Example #5:
Shave and a hair cut – two bits
Who was the barber – Tom Mix
Who did he marry – Pearl White
How did he like her – alright
-Valerie on August 21, 2011, Hersam: Shave And A Haircut

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Example #6:
From the midwest…

Shave and a hair cut – two bits
Who did he marry?
His horse
What did it end up?
Divorce!

....*
-Anne on February 22, 2010, Hersam: Shave And A Haircut
-snip-
*[My asterisk] This contributor and some others commented about the custom of the car horn honking "shave and hair cut" while driving through a tunnel.

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Example #7:
They way I heard it growing up in the 50′s, was:

Shave and a haircut, two bits
Who you gonna marry, Tom Mix
If he falls and breaks his bones,
Who you gonna marry, Buck Jones.

The girls used to sing that song while jumping rope. Since I had three sisters, I heard it a lot
....*
-Pete on November 6, 2012, Hersam: Shave And A Haircut
*[My asterisk]. Read my comment for Example #6.
-snip-
Here's information on Buck Jones from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Jones
"Buck Jones (December 12, 1891[1] – November 30, 1942) was an American motion picture star of the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, known for his work starring in many popular western movies. In his early film appearances, he was billed as Charles Jones."

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Example #8:
"I hesitate to record the following, but I will anyway. Here is a song I learned in YMCA day camp – 1947 (what was a good Jewish boy like me doing in a Christian day camp? – it’s a long story):

Well, I walked into a bakery shop to get something to eat
Because I was so hungry from my head to my feet
So I picks up a doughnut and I wipes off the grease [doughnuts invented ~1800]
And I hands the waitress a five cent piece. [~ price in about 1930]
Well, she looks at the nickel and she looks at me
And she says hey mister can’t you plainly see
There’s a hole in the nickel
There’s a hole right through
Says I, there’s a hole in the doughnut too,
Shave and a haircut, two bits
You said a mouthful – Shut up!

This children’s rhyme was obviously not the source of the ‘beat’ or its accompanying expression, which is just tacked onto the end, but it seems not unlikely to me that some earlier one was. Maybe it started as the 'barber’s song' or 'barber’s rhyme,' which was usually accompanied by a participants tapping or ‘knocking’ out the beat’ – VOILA!"
-Ken Greenwald (Fort Collins, CO - U.S.A.) Mon Jun 28, 2004, http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4157 "knocking pattern (shave/haircut/two bits)" Hereafter given as Wordwizard:(shave/haircut/two bits)

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Example #9:
"there is actually a rhyme that goes with "a shave and a haircut." it is as follows:

A Shave and a Haircut, two bits
Who is the barber, Tom Micks
Who did he marry, Snow White
How are you feeling, alright

This rhyme really makes no sense to me but my grandmother taught it to me shortly before she passed away so I never forgot it. It's a cute rhyme and sounds good if you say it right. We used to say it when there was nothing else to say and the room was quiet. If you know the meaning of it, then more power to you…"
-Shawnee radera, Mon Jun 28, 2004, Wordwizard:(shave/haircut/two bits)

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Example #10:
I was told once that this was an advertising jingle.

"Shave and a haircut, six bits.
Don't chew tobacco, chew Britt's.'

Don't know if the song came first and was adopted for the jingle, or if the jingle came first."

Britt's was a chewing gum, older even than Black Jack (anybody else remember this?)
-rs0522, 09-16-2000, http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=38661

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OTHER CHILDREN'S RHYMES THAT USE THE "SHAVE AND A HAIR CUT" TUNE
SOMEONE FARTED PEE-YOU
"While reading this it occurred to me that this was a rhyme people used to say when i was younger.
I grew up in the nineties for reference :D

“Somebody farted, pee-you!
Who did it come from? From you!
When did it happen? Last night!
How did it feel? Just right!”

Very childish I know, but a play on the same rhyme nonetheless."
-Youngin on July 2, 2011, Hersam: Shave And A Haircut

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SKUNK IN THE BARNYARD
Skunk in the barnyard, P.U.
somebody ate it, that's you!

(note: sung to the tune of Shave and a Haircut.)…"

http://www.playgroundjungle.com/2009/12/counting-out-rhymes.html

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RELATED LINK
A post on children's rhymes that include the line "What did you feed him/neckbones (or
a similar word) will be posted ASAP. Most of those rhymes begin with the line "My mommy sent me to the store", and some of those rhymes include the "Shave and a hair cut. Two bits" line.

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This concludes Part II of this pancocojams post.

Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post. Special thanks to Dan Hersham http://dan.hersam.com/2004/09/21/shave-and-a-haircut-two-bits/ "Amidst a tangled web: shave and a haircut, two bits".

Thank you for visiting pancocojams.

Visitor comments are welcome

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Children's Risque Rhymes - Nasty Nursery Rhymes

Edited by Azizi Powell

This post is Part II of a series on risqué playground rhymes and bawdy nursery rhymes. Part II contains selected examples from a Mudcat Folk music discussion thread on "Nasty Nursery Rhymes" that began in 2001 (The selected examples range from 2001 to 2010).

WARNING - No profanity and/or sexually explicit language are included in the selected examples presented in this post. For that reason, I consider the examples in this post to be only "mildly risqué". However, a number of examples that are included in that forum's discussion thread contain profanity and/or are very sexually explicit.

Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2014/01/black-sorority-members-memories-of.html for Part I of this post.

Part I contains selected examples of "old school" rhymes & cheer from a 2003 Greekchat.com discussion thread.

The content of this post is presented for folkloric, sociological, and entertainment purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

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EDITOR'S NOTE
This sample of rhymes is posted to this pancocojams blog which focuses on music, dance, and other cultural indices of African American and other Black cultures as a means of comparing these rhymes with the rhymes that are featured on Part I of this post and as a means of demonstrating that African American children weren't/aren't the only children to chant risqué rhymes.

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PREFACE: DEFINITIONS
Definitions for "risqué" are "referring to sex in a rude and slightly shocking way" and "verging on impropriety or indecency" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/risqu%C3%A9.

Definitions for "bawdy" are "obscene, lewd. 2. : boisterously or humorously indecent." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bawdy

A number of risqué/bawdy rhymes contain profanity (cuss words) and/or sexually explicit content. However, I’m not including any of those types of examples in this post. For that reason, I consider the examples in this post to be only "mildly risqué".

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COLLECTING RISQUE CHILDREN’S RHYMES
From Unprintable Ozark Folksongs and Folklore: Roll me in your arms, Volume 1
by Vance Randolph (University of Arkansas Press, 1992, p. 1)
“The collector’s ostensible control over the folk material they collect and publish - or refuse to collect and do not publish- naturally operates in both the negative and positive sense…When no one would admit, for example, to the existence of children's erotic folklore (or erotic life), none was to be seen. ... and most important for English and American children's bawdy jokes and rhymes. Now that a few bold collectors, mostly women, have been courageously willing to admit children’s folk-erotica into their formerly lily-pure collections, riddles, catches and pranks, and other such lore has been relatively easy to create, by means of artfully untended tape recorders.
-snip-
I believe that because blogging is relatively anonymous, the internet allows people to publicly share folk material -such as bawdy (dirty) rhymes - that they would be unlikely to publicly recite during face to face interviews. As such, blogging removes the need for hidden microphones or cameras to capture this illusive folkloric material. However, two downsides of collecting from the internet are the difficulty of confirming the authenticity of the material and the difficulty of collecting and confirming demographical information from the contributors.

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DEMOGRAPHICS
Excerpt for Example #4 below, no information about the gender of the bloggers is given. Excerpt for Example #7 below, these examples include no geographical information. As a former member of that forum, I'm aware that the majority of Mudcat members are from the United States and the United Kingdom. I recognize the member who posted the example given here as #1 as a male from the UK, and the member who posted the example given as #2 here as a male from the United States. Also, given his or her use of the word "knickers" its likely that the ember who oisted the example given here as #5 is from the UK.

Informal surveys of Mudcat members when I was active there (from August 2002 through November 2009) indicated that there were considerable more male members, and most members were age 50 and older.

No racial information was given for participants of either of these discussion threads. However, because of a number of factors, I'm certain that the participants in the Greekchat.com discussion are African Americans.

As a former active member of the Mudcat Folk & Blues Discussion Forum, I'm reasonably certain that all of the members who posted on that thread were White, and think that it's a high probability that most if not all of the guest posters on that particular thread were also White.

****
PART II: NASTY NURSERY RHYMES
These examples are presented in chronological order based on their posting date, with the oldest dated example given first. The forum member's screen name (or the word "guest" for non-members) and the date of the posting [without the time) are also given in this post. These examples are numbered for referencing purposes. Except for Example #2, I've included no editorial comments about these examples.

Source: http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=41824
1. From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 01

My brother Billy had ten foot Willy
and he showd it to the girl next door
She thought it was a snake and she hit it with a rake
and now it's only five foot four.

****
2. From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Dec 01

"The only one of his [stand up comedian Andrew Dice Clay] that I know for a fact WAS making the schoolyard rounds at least 40 years ago is a bit different than listed there. I remember it quite well:
Old Mother Hubbard
Went to the cupboard
To fetch her poor dog a bone.
But when she bent over,
Rover came over,
And he had a bone of his own.
-snip-
This verse is a standard chant for members of a historically Black Greek lettered fraternity (I think the fraternity is Omega Psi Phi Fraternity, Inc, because of their informal name "(Nasty) Que Dogs. I've seen this chant performed on YouTube by either that fraternity or another one. Click http://www.cocojams.com/content/fraternity-and-sorority-chants for my comment about this "fraternity" chant.

****
3. From: weepiper
Date: 06 Dec 01

Jack and Jill went up the hill
to fetch a pail of water,
Jill forgot to take her pill
and now she's got a daughter.

****
4. GUEST,Bluegrass Granny
Date: 08 Dec 01 -

Mary had a little lamb She tied him to a heater And every time he turned around He burned his little peter!

****
5. From: pavane
Date: 08 Dec 01

Little Miss Muffet
Sat on a tuffet
her knickers all tattered and torn
It wasn't the spider
That sat down beside her
But little boy blue
with his horn

****
6. From: GUEST,FuBar
Date: 20 Sep 07
Mary had a little blouse
'twas tatterd all to bits
And everywhere that Mary went
It showed her little tits!

Mary had a little skirt
'Twas split right up the front
And everywhere that Mary went
... She had to sit down all the time. (Yeah right.)

****
7. From: GUEST,*^^*aussie*^^*
Date: 16 Dec 07

Ok duno where all u ppl r from but here's 2 i'v grown up with in AUS!!!!!

MARY had a little lamb
she thought it rather silly
she threw it up in the air
and cought it by it's
WILLY was a bulldog sitting in the grass
down came a bee and stung him up the
ASK no questions tell no lies i saw
two police men doing up their
FLIES are dirty fleas are worse
this is the end of my dirty little verse!!

****
8. From: GUEST,Jessie Lou
Date: 16 Nov 08

Jack and Jill went up the hill
To smoke some marijuana
Jack got high
unzipped his fly
and said 'do you wanna?'
Jill said yes
and dropped her dress
then they had some fun
stupid Jill forgot the pill
NOW they have a son
Subject: RE: Nasty Nursery Rhymes

****
9. From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:19 PM

Mary had a little lamb
She thought it rather silly
She threw it up into the air and caught it by its
Willy was a bulldog sitting in the grass
Along came a bee and stung him on his
Ask no questions tell no lies
I saw a policeman pulling up his
Flies are a nusance, bee's are worse
This is the end of my little verse

****
10. From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 19 Nov 08

Jack and Jill
Went up the hill
And planned to do some kissing.
Jack made a pass
And grabbed her ass
Now two of his teeth are missing.

****
11. From: GUEST,Guest: Rap Song
Date: 13 Nov 10

Mary had a little Lamb
She tied him to the heater
Everytime he turned around
He burned his little peter
Peter pumpkin eater
Had a wife and couldn't keep her
Put her in a pumpkin shell and blew her all to
Hello operator, connect me number nine
If you disconnect me, I'll kick you in the
Ding, Dong Avon's here
Just behind the fridgerator
Tommy broke some glass
Slipped and fell while cleaning and cut his little
Ask me no questions, I'll tell you know lies...

****
Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.

Thanks for visiting pancocojams.

Visitor comments are welcome.

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Black Sorority Members' Memories Of Children's Risque Rhymes

Edited by Azizi Powell

This post is Part I of a series on risqué playground rhymes and bawdy nursery rhymes.

Part I contains selected examples of "old school" playground rhymes & cheers from a 2003 Greekchat.com discussion thread.

Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2014/01/childrens-risque-rhymes-nasty-nursery.html for Part II of this post.

Part II contains selected examples from a Mudcat Folk music discussion thread on "Nasty Nursery Rhymes". The selected examples were posted in that thread from 2001 to 2007.

WARNING - No profanity and/or sexually explicit language are included in the selected examples presented in this post. For that reason, I consider the examples in this post to be only "mildly risqué". However, a number of examples that are included in the websites that are the source for Part I and Part II of this post include profanity and/or are sexually explicit.

It's important to note that most of the examples from that six page Greekchat.com discussion thread contain no risqué content. I've included all but one of the risqué examples that are found in that thread. The example that I didn't include includes profanity, although those rhyming words are represented by asterisks.

Also, please be aware that there's at least one other Greekchat.com discussion titled "old school chants" that provides examples of historically Black Greek lettered fraternity & sorority chants. That discussion also includes profanity and sexually explicit content.

The content of this post is presented for folkloric, sociological, and entertainment purposes.

All copyrights remain with their owners.

****
PREFACE: DEFINITIONS
Definitions for "risqué" are "referring to sex in a rude and slightly shocking way" and "verging on impropriety or indecency" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/risqu%C3%A9.

Definitions for "bawdy" are "obscene, lewd. 2. : boisterously or humorously indecent." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bawdy

****
COLLECTING RISQUE CHILDREN’S RHYMES
From Unprintable Ozark Folksongs and Folklore: Roll me in your arms, Volume 1
by Vance Randolph (University of Arkansas Press, 1992, p. 1)
“The collector’s ostensible control over the folk material they collect and publish - or refuse to collect and do not publish- naturally operates in both the negative and positive sense…When no one would admit, for example, to the existence of children's erotic folklore (or erotic life), none was to be seen. ... and most important for English and American children's bawdy jokes and rhymes. Now that a few bold collectors, mostly women, have been courageously willing to admit children’s folk-erotica into their formerly lily-pure collections, riddles, catches and pranks, and other such lore has been relatively easy to create, by means of artfully untended tape recorders.
-snip-
I believe that because blogging is relatively anonymous, the internet allows people to publicly share folk material -such as bawdy (dirty) rhymes - that they would be unlikely to publicly recite during face to face interviews. As such, blogging removes the need for hidden microphones or cameras to capture this illusive folkloric material. However, two downsides of collecting from the internet are the difficulty of confirming the authenticity of the material and the difficulty of collecting and confirming demographical information from the contributors.

****
DEMOGRAPHICS
Number of participants and Geographical location:
A total of 29 unduplicated bloggers participated in this discussion thread which had a total of 84 posts of examples and/or comments).

Only a few of the participants in this online discussion indicated their geographical location. Also, the geographical location that was cited may not have been where the bloggers lived when they chanted these rhymes as children. For that reason, it's not possible to determine how widespread certain rhymes were that were mentioned by more than one blogger. In spite of that, these examples clearly show that certain types of rhymes - such as hand clap rhymes, and the group/soloist form of what I call "foot stomping cheers" were found in multiple regions of the United States.

Here are the states that were given by these bloggers: Atlanta, Georgia; Baton Rouge, Louisiana; California; Chicago, Illinois; Florida; Memphis, Tennessee; Miami, Florida; New Jersey; New Orleans, Louisiana; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Prince George County, Maryland; and Texas

Defining "Old School Chants" By Decades
I believe that most of these "old school" examples are from the early 1980s to the mid 1980s. For instance, although one blogger gave a sub-heading for her post of "the 70s", three bloggers shared examples of a Coca Cola ad jingle ("Have A Coke And A Smile" that aired in 1981. Also, one blogger mentioned her age in 2003 as 23 years old, another blogger indicated that she remembered the rhyme she shared "from the 1985-ish Houston [Texas], and another rhyme included the slang word "fly" which gained popularity because of the 1995 Boogie Boy's record "Fly Girl".

That said, certain rhymes that I've collected online from 1984 on that are noticeable absent from this collection. I'm specifically referring to what I call "long form" examples of "Down By The Bank Of The Hanky Panky" (or similar rhymes) that mention Michael Jackson and allude to his hair on fire accident in 1984 while singing his hit song "Billy Jean" during the filming of a Pepsi commercial. A number of those "long form" Hanky Panky rhymes include the verse "Coca Cola Came To Town". While that rhyme is included in that discussion thread, it's not linked to the "Down By The Banks Of The Hanky Panky" rhyme. Also, noticeable absent is the "I pledge allegiance to the flag" verse that I've only found to date with long form "Michael Jackson" examples of "Down By The Banks Of The Hanky Panky".* The absence of those rhymes suggests to me that most of these examples were chanted by those bloggers prior to 1984. An alternative theory is that these bloggers knew about those examples, but refrained from sharing them because they were loyal to the African American pop artist who was highly regarded by many African Americans and non- African Americans.

Racial demographics
Because of a number of factors-including certain screen names, the use of certain vernacular English in some examples & some comments, and the inclusion of certain types of rhymes & cheers- I'm very certain that all of the participants in this Greekchat.com discussion were Black (and, more specifically, were African American).

Read my comment below about how I deduced the race of the Greekchat.com bloggers, and why I believe that citing the race/ethnicity of folkloric contributors is important.

*Click http://www.cocojams.com/content/references-michael-jackson-playground-rhymes-part-I for Part I of a two part post on my cocojams.com cultural website about "References To Michael Jackson In Playground Rhymes".

****
PART I: OLD SCHOOL CHANTS & COMMENTS ABOUT THOSE CHANTS
These examples are numbered for referencing purposes. The blogger's name, any geographical information, and the date the example/comment was written online are given before the example or comment.

In some cases, I've added a brief comment in brackets before the quoted example or comment. In some cases, after the word "snip" (end of quote), I've also added a brief editorial comment to explain something about the featured rhyme or comment.

From http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=31403&page=2

1. ADivine08, 3-25-2003
"this one is for Chi-town!!
12 x 12 is 144 if the bed breaks down you can do it on the ....
We may not have known all the twelves but we knew this one !"
-snip-
"Chi-town" = Chicago, Illinois

"knew all the twelves" = means knew the twelve time tables (how to multiple by 12).

****
2. RedefinedDiva (Atlanta, Georgia / New Orleans, Louisiana), 3-25-2003

[excerpt]
When I was a teenager, teenager, teenager
When I was a teenager, teenager, teenager
I went (no words--just pretend to primp in the mirror)
All night long
All night long

When I was a woman, woman, woman
When I was a woman, woman, woman
I went (no words--just make kissing sounds)
All night long
All night long

When I got married, married, married
When I got married, married, married
I went (no words--just pretend to "push it")
All night long
All night long

When I had a baby, baby, baby
When I had a baby, baby, baby
I went (no words--just waddle like a pregnant woman)
All night long
-snip-
This life progression rhyme begins with “When I was a baby” and ends with “When I died”

****
Bamboozled, 3-25-2003 [Comment]
"I think we should include some "new school" ones as well, because while some of ours may be a little risqué, some of the ones today are just plain ol' nasty. I've had to give my niece "the look" on several occasions for some of that mess. I'm going to ask her to tell me the words and I'll post them."
-snip-
After she quoted the “push it” verse given above (in Example #2), Bamboozled wrote on that same date:
"Okay, I retract my former statement. Some of ours were just as scandalous, LOL."

****
3. CrimsonTide4, 3-25-2003

[This was written in reference to Twileelee rhyme* which was quoted on that page]:

YEAH!!!! Thanks GINA!!

But we also had another R rated verse

Mama's on bottom
Papa's on top
Baby singing "Get down Pop"
Rockin Robin Tweet . . .

or maybe it was grandma and grandpa . . . that I have forgotten."
-snip-
"R rated" - "a movie designation meaning that the movie is restricted for anyone under 17 unless you have an adult or parent with you. The content is considered to be too 'mature' for younger viewers." http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061118101547AASb9e4
Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2012/04/rockin-robin-tweeleelee-analysis.html for a pancocojams post on "Tweeleelee" (or similar spellings).

****
1savvydiva (Prince George County, Maryland), 3-25-2003 [Comment]
"You was an 'omanish lil' thang!!!
-snip-
The word "‘omanish” (“womanish”) may have been coined by that blogger. That word is an adaptation of the African American vernacular term “mannish”. "mannish" = a young person who acts as though they are sexually aware. Children, pre-teens, and teenagers who are mannish are trying to act like a man, that is, they are talking and acting more “grown” than they actually are. Although it would seem that the word "mannish" refers only to males, there are no gender qualities implicit in this term. Females can also be described as acting "mannish", and a mannish girl doesn't necessarily act masculine. Another African American vernacular word for a mannish boy or girl is acting (behaving/ talking as though they are "fast" (although it seems to me that this term is used more for girls.) "Fast" may be used because the girl or boy is growing up [too] quickly (too fast). The words "fast", "grown", and "mannish" aren't considered compliments when adults use them to refer to a boy or a girl. However, in the context of this sorority discussion thread, "‘omanish” and "mannish" probably are somewhat of a compliment, although note that many of the bloggers who shared those risqué rhymes hastened to add that they really didn't know what they were talking about when they chanted those rhymes.

****
4. Symphony08 (Illinois), 3-26-2003
"One of my line sisters remembered this "mannish" version of Tell It:

My name is ___________ (Tell it, tell it)
I'm on the line (Tell it, tell it)
smoking reefer and drinking wine
And you know what (What?)
And you know what (What?)
I have a man (Tell it, tell it)
He looks alright (Tell it, tell it)
But he can do it do it do it do it allllll night (Say what!)

She swears they used to say this in elementary school (We're both 23/24). I wonder what those little girls are chanting now.
-snip-
“line sister” - a female who pledged the same chapter of the sorority along with you

"I'm on the line" = probably on the telephone line (talking on the telephone)

"do it" = have sex with me

This discussion thread included three versions of "Tell It". One version of that cheer wasn't risque. Another risqué version is given below. I've haven't come across any other versions of "Tell It" other than on that discussion thread. That said, given its textual structure, I'd categorize "Tell It" as a "Romance style" foot stomping cheer.

Click this page of my Cocojams website for information and examples of foot stomping cheers: http://www.cocojams.com/content/foot-stomping-cheers-0.

****
http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=31403&page=5

5. Miss Mocha, 3-28-2003
"Tell it

My name is Mocha (Tell it, tell it)
I'm on the line (Tell it, tell it)
I wanna do it (tell it, tell it)
with Nas' sign (Tell it, tell it)
And you know what? (what?)
My man will rough you up.
Hey!!!

The alternate version said, "and you know what? My man don't do enough".
-snip-
"with Nas' sign" - with a man who is Nas’ astrological sun sign
Nas is an African American rapper, songwriter, and actor. Since his debut album wasn't released until 1994, this cheer with his name is either a later version of the cheer that Miss Mocha remembered from her childhood, pre-teen, or teen years*, or she updated this cheer by substituted Nas' name instead of chanting the name of a no longer current celebrity.
-snip-
My man will rough you up - My boyfriend will beat you up [if you bother me]

My man don't do enough - The female speaker is bragging that she wants even more sex than her man is giving her.

It's important to emphasize that these girls were probably all talk and no action. However, these examples document the high value that "street wise" African American girls were supposed to place on being tough, an being sexually attractive.

****
6. 12dn94dst, 3-31-2003
"group: get in the car
press the gas
move out the way and let Kelli pass

(Kelli gets in the middle/out front & does her dance)

group: she said whoop wop (doing dance)
Kelli: look @ that booty
group: whoomp wop
Kelli: ain't it purty
group: whoop wop
kelli: u want some? u ain't gettin none!
-snip-
"booty" = butt

"u want some? u ain't gettin none!" = do you want some sex? You aren't getting any from me.

"Get In The Car" is a Dance style foot stomping cheer. During her turn as the soloist, each girl is supposed to come up with a different dance move (usually from currently popular R*B/Hip-Hop dances, but also from "old school" dances (ones that used to be popular, but have been replaced by newer dances.)

****
Eclipse (Atlanta, Georgia), 3-31-2003 [Comment]
"Y'all shole was some fast lil' heifahs!! LOL Talkin' bout bootys and getting some! LOL (shaking my head while knowing I said some of the same stuff!)
-snip-
"shole" = sure

“heifahs” (heifers) young cows = young females ; “getting some” = getting some sex

Remember, all of these bloggers were members of university based Greek lettered sororities, and therefore they knew how to speak and write standard American English. This is an example of purposely code switching to a Southern (down home) dialectic form of African American vernacular English.

****
7. Kisha, 4-01-2003
"I remeber getting in trouble at an after school program for this one
James Brown glad to meet ya
Drop you're drawls and follow me
In the bushes we may go
lay down real slow
Won't yo mama be surprised
To see yo belly rise
Won't you father be disgusted
To see your cherry busted

...

The thing is I didn't know what I was talking about.
There was another one that went something like

George Washington was a great old man
He jumped out the window with a stick in his hand.

The managed kids didn't say stick but something that I want even write.
I remember that!"
-snip-
drawls [also given as "draws"] = ["drawers"] underpants
-snip-
The last four lines of that first rhyme remind me of the sexualized versions of the rhyme that I refer to as "We wear our hair in curls". Click http://chat.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123101&page=2&desc=yes for a Mudcat discussion thread that I started in 2009 about that rhyme.

“managed” kids = probably a typo for “mannish”.

****
http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=31403&page=6

8. bitsy196, 6-25-2003
"Hello

H-e-l-l-o,
we are here
to say hello to Mocha

Mocha is my name
and cheering is my game
Pink and purple are my colors
don't you worry 'bout my lovers.
(Uhm she think she bad)
Correction baby, I know I'm bad.
(Uhm, she think she cool)
Cool enough to steal your dude.
(Uhm, she think she fine)
Fine enough to blow his mind."
-snip-
“Hello” is probably a folk etymology title for the Introduction/Confrontational foot stomping cheer whose title is usually given as “Hula Hulu”. That same Greekchat.com discussion thread includes another example of that cheer with the beginning line “who now who now”.

Notice that the girl says "don't you worry 'bout my loverS" and is bragging about stealing another person's "dude". Although the girls who recite these cheers are probably play acting (in the theatrical sense of that term), this attitude reflects real life, and permeates R&B/Hip Hop music and other African American music forms including fraternity & sorority cheers such as
"1 and 1 and 1 make three
You better watch your man cause your man is watching me"
[That cheer goes on to say how members of that particular sorority can get any man they want
Click http://www.cocojams.com/content/fraternity-and-sorority-chants for examples of that rhyme. I've also found those same beginning lines in certain foot stomping cheers.

"Bad", "cool", "fine", and "blowing someone's mind" are all African American vernacular English terms. Click http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2012/05/slang-meaning-of-bad-in-songs.html for
"The Slang Meaning Of "Bad" In Songs & Playground Cheers"

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This completes Part I of this series on Risqué Children's Rhymes.

Thanks to all those who are quoted in this post.

Thanks for visiting pancocojams.

Visitor comments are welcome.

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